20th May Speech from Lord Blackwell

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20th May 2008

Lord Blackwell: I have two brief points to make in support of the amendment. First, opt-ins are not just a question of opting into a particular measure and incorporating it into UK law. By opting into any measure, we are importing into the UK justice system the supremacy of the European Court of Justice in areas of criminal law and justice. It would be not only the original measure into which we opted; once we had opted in, any amendment made to that measure, which could be by qualified majority voting, would also be subject to interpretation by the European

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Court of Justice. That is why the opt-ins are particularly important: not only are they about an individual measure, but they open up a whole new constitutional significance.

The noble Lords, Lord Grenfell and Lord Roper, spoke about the scrutiny procedure. Everyone would accept that it is ideal for both Houses to be able to use their scrutiny processes to maximum effect, but that does not in any way conflict with there being a parliamentary procedure following it. I do not think that anyone would assume that the role of the scrutiny committees is to pre-empt the judgment of the House on important issues; the role of the committees is to inform the House, which they do very well. However, it is for the House at the end of the day to be given the chance to take its view, as the other place, on issues that have major constitutional significance. The scrutiny and parliamentary procedures are therefore complementary.

Other Lords spoke

Lord Blackwell moved Amendment No. 160B:

Before Clause 7, insert the following new Clause-

"Referendum requirement on the Euro

Her Majesty's Government may not notify the Council of its intention to adopt the Euro under paragraph 9 of the Protocol on certain provisions relating to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (as amended by the Treaty of Lisbon) unless a decision to adopt the Euro has been approved by a referendum conducted under the provisions of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (c. 41)."

The noble Lord said: I hope this amendment will be relatively uncontentious. I will therefore keep my opening remarks fairly brief. The treaty of Lisbon inserts into the relevant protocol a provision that Her Majesty's Government may notify the European Council at any time of their intent to join the euro. The treaty is, of course, silent on what process may go on within the United Kingdom before the Government make that notification. Fortunately, for the last decade we have had cross-party agreement in the United Kingdom that no decision to join the euro would be taken without being the subject of a referendum. It has been a sensible policy to uphold in this country because of the recognition of how important a step joining the euro, were we ever to do so, would be.

There are a couple of reasons for that. This is not the place to discuss the pros and cons of the euro, but most people would accept that it has both economic and political significance. The economic benefits have been argued by many, but equally there are those-among whom I include myself-who believe that floating exchange rates were one of the great successes of the second half of the last century, and that they have worked greatly in the UK's favour by enabling our

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economy to adjust in periods of turbulence. Indeed, you could argue that the only periods when the UK has had real trouble have been when it has attempted to link its exchange rate permanently to some other grouping. I happen to be in favour of maintaining floating exchange rates. Whichever side of the argument you come down on, most people would agree that these are serious and deep economic arguments that run across party lines. There are people of both persuasions in all parties and, indeed, in no party.
Similarly, on political grounds, a number of eminent people gave evidence to the recent House of Lords European Union Committee report on the euro. Most accepted-or indeed made-the point that because monetary policy is intimately linked with fiscal policy and therefore overall economic policy, and because of the impact that overall policy has on the way economic development affects the country and the individuals in it, it is very difficult to proceed to monetary union without that carrying with it some degree of political union. That factor has been one of the driving forces behind the adoption and development of the euro as part of a project of European integration. Therefore, any decision by the UK to join the euro would, most would accept, have implications for the level of pooling of sovereignty in a number of areas that that carried with it.

For economic reasons and reasons of sovereignty, and the important point that these arguments have run across party lines in the United Kingdom for many years, there has been a common policy of accepting that any decision on something so important should be adopted through a referendum.

One might ask why we need this commitment in this Bill. To be delicate, the public might have reason, as a result of recent debates, to be suspicious of whether commitments to referendums made by parties in manifestos have the level of value and confidence that they might have believed them to have. It is not for me to enlarge on that point. But, with this Bill including the provision to notify the Council of a decision to join the euro, it would be sensible for us to put beyond doubt that all parties in this Parliament, and those who are not of any party but are here to uphold the constitution, still subscribe to the view that a decision of this importance should be subject to a referendum. Including this provision takes it once and for all out of the political debate. It would be settled and decided that that is the view of all involved in this question.

I do not think any member of any political party would want it thought that, having made a commitment to a referendum, there was any doubt about that commitment. Therefore, it would be helpful to all political parties to have that written into the treaty so that no one can ever question their commitment. That is why I believe this is, I hope, an uncontentious amendment that should have the support of all sides of the Committee. I look forward to it being received in that manner. I beg to move.

Other Lords spoke

Lord Blackwell: I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and to the Minister for her response. A number of arguments have been put against the amendment. First, my noble friend Lord Brittan, the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, and others have argued that referendums are wrong in principle. Those who believe that should clearly oppose the amendment. I disagree with them for the reasons eloquently set out by my noble friend Lord Leach, but clearly if you think that a referendum on the euro is wrong, you will oppose the amendment. The vast majority of contributions from around the Committee have indicated that the amendment should, in principle, be agreed with, but noble Lords have questioned whether it is in the wrong place and whether it is needed. Perhaps I may briefly address those points.

This is a treaty of Europe. The provisions on the euro and monetary union are major components of the treaty of Europe, the treaty on the functioning of Europe and the protocols that accompany them. As I made clear in my introduction, the Lisbon treaty amends those protocols to say that Her Majesty's

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Government can notify the Council of their decision to enter the euro. We are debating a treaty on Europe, and the provisions on monetary union are a major feature of the European Community and its development. If there is any doubt about the UK Government's policies on that and other issues and about the way in which the powers in the treaties should be exercised, the Bill implementing this treaty is exactly the right place to set those matters straight. Therefore, I cannot see any argument for saying that this is the wrong place for my amendment. If the Government were to offer a separate Bill to deal with the matter, I should be happy to accept it, but it seems to me convenient and perfectly in line with the purpose of these treaties to make the amendment here, as is the case with any of the other amendments that we have discussed to do with other passerelle provisions, other opt-ins and so on.

The other argument, put forward by the noble Lords, Lord Tomlinson, Lord McNally and Lord Hannay, is that the amendment is unnecessary. This goes back to the point about trust. I was delighted to hear the Minister reaffirm the Government's commitment to a referendum on the euro and I was delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord McNally, on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench confirm, under interrogation, that the Liberal policy to support a referendum on the euro is unchanged. However, as I said in my opening remarks, it would not be surprising if the public were suspicious about commitments to referendums being met, which is why I think it necessary, in the interests of public trust, to include this in the Bill.

I wish to clarify a point made by my noble friend Lord Brittan. He said that I had suggested that a referendum on the issue would take the matter out of political debate. I did not suggest that a commitment to a referendum would make the issue non-political; I suggested that, if it were clear that all parties were committed to a referendum, the question whether or not to have a referendum would be taken out of political debate. However, there are clearly those in this Chamber who, despite agreeing with the notion of a referendum on the euro, want to find a reason for not including it in the Bill. If there are any doubters, I should make it clear that agreeing to this amendment would not in any way invalidate the treaty or prevent it from being ratified; it would simply be a procedural issue within the United Kingdom.

Those who oppose the amendment must accept that they open themselves up to the electorate questioning whether their reason for doing so is that they wish to leave themselves some degree of freedom. That may not be their intent but I do not think that they can blame anyone but themselves if that is what people read into their motives. That is a decision for them. I think that it is in the interests of political trust and democracy in this country that we make it clear that, before we enter the euro, all parties are committed to a referendum on the matter. For that reason, I wish to test the opinion of the Committee.

5.24 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 160B) shall be agreed to?

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Their Lordships divided: Contents, 135; Not-Contents, 195.